Juliette Sellgren 

Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition. Hi, I'm Juliette Sellgren, and this is my podcast, the Great Antidote- named for Adam Smith, brought to you by Liberty Fund. To learn more, visit www.AdamSmithWorks.org.

Welcome back. We talk about a lot of big ideas on this podcast, but what about the methods and the people who convey those ideas? How do we become our best selves in method but also just stand alone so that our interactions are filled with mutual respect and can actually make the world a kinder more well-mannered place? Today, on June 18th, 2024. I'm excited to welcome Candace Smith onto the podcast to talk to us about manners and etiquette. She is basically a walking how-to guide on manners and etiquette. She teaches a lot of university students the how-tos of the business world, the social world, and she even leads practice dinners, which I would love to go to. That sounds fun and awesome. So welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to have you.

Candace Smith 

Thank you, Juliette. I'm excited to be here.

Juliette Sellgren 

So first question, what is the most important thing that people my age or in my generation should know that we don't?

Candace Smith 

Modifying the question just a little bit. What is the most important thing people your age or in your generation might not know, might not know? Does that work better? 

The truthful answer is I really don't know what other people don't know that I do know. Two things though, handwritten thank you notes are really good things, really good things. And the other thing, and I try to teach my grandchildren that what's it like. So I reward them when they send a thank you note. I make a big deal out of it. Thank you. Thank you for the thank you note. It was lovely, lovely habit. The other question that I think's really important to ask, and I don't know that it's not just people, younger people, it's all people. And the question is, what's it like to be on the other side of me? It's very important, very important question. And wherever you are to have that reflective moment, what's it like right now for other people as they're interacting with me? It's a great game changer.

Juliette Sellgren (2.59)

That is a great game changer. I have a question in response to that. Is there ever a time or maybe not a time, is there an upper bound or a limit to when that question becomes almost self-indulgent? I think a lot of the time people my age have this thing, which has existed for longer than my generation. Sure. Called imposter syndrome. And I remember asking once a great mentor why I was in a certain program in a certain place and she looked at me and she was like, Juliette, that's kind of offensive. You're here because we picked you to be here and because you're very capable. What is it with your generation and overthinking and assuming? So maybe it is that they're just not fully, they and I include myself in they I guess, or not fully asking the question and looking for an answer. So I guess if you look for an answer, maybe that's the solution, but we almost don't restrict that thought, if that makes sense. So is there a point where that becomes too self-indulgent or we just not being genuine in the way we ask?

Candace Smith 

So you mean the question, what's it like to be on the other side of me?

Juliette Sellgren 

Yeah, I think we overthink that a little bit too much almost sometimes, and don't ask it in the right way or reflect properly, maybe.

Candace Smith (4.30)

Sometimes when I ask myself that question, it might be maybe a difficult interaction with my sister and sometimes I think to myself, perhaps, perhaps it's me that's being pushy right now. What am I saying? What's it like if I were in her shoes looking at me and what it does, it puts me in her place and I get a chance to look from, I find myself turning around as I'm speaking here, turning around and putting over there. How am I coming across? Am I coming across as pushy?

Juliette Sellgren 

So it's a more genuine process. It's not a…

Candace Smith 

Yes.

Juliette Sellgren 

It's about, yeah, that's something we could all work on. Do you have any advice for how to do that?

Candace Smith (5.30)

No, I don't. I don't, don't know. Yeah. I was out earlier today and I was in the grocery store and there was a clerk that was just one of the, I was going through the checkout link and she just seemed so unhappy and I thought, okay, it's, I wonder what I turned it around. I thought, what's she experiencing right now? She might not be having a good day, I don't know, but I'm going to be extra kind. And she ended up smiling. So I think it's reciprocal. I just had a thought.

The Smithian view of individuals in society is different than the modern way of thinking, which is all actions are motivated by consequences in the Smithian view, because he wasn't a utilitarian. And we learned to create our rules and we follow rules. We're rule followers because we want to get along with other people, we want to get along with our neighbors. And Adam Smith made an important distinction between self-interested and acting always in your self-interest. And he pointed out, we're all strictly self-interested, but you cannot look mankind in the face and a vow that every decision is driven by your self-interest. And I think this is important because it opens up the way for us to become, it makes it easier for us to become rule followers in the way in which Adam Smith, and I'm trying to, I can't remember the exact phrase, but he referred to it as self-command to make judgments about when and where to modify what we're there in our self-interest in order to live peaceably right then and there with the people we're interacting with and our neighbors. Yeah, I just love Adam Smith.

Juliette Sellgren (8.07)

Well, what's funny is as you were speaking, I was what came to mind was the golden rule, treat others as you would like to be treated. I think there's something more to that sentence than just that. I think it's a little longer, but I can't remember exactly right at this moment. But this is a very Smithian statement, which is funny. I mean it's beautiful is what it is. But that's what we need. I guess the way the context in which we hear and ask you what is etiquette, because I think I have an idea of what it means, but what is the actual definition?

Candace Smith 

Well, I don't really like the dictionary. I don't really like the dictionary definition…

Juliette Sellgren 

What is the Candace Smith [definition]?

Candace Smith (8.56)

Well, I know one thing, it's a counter, it's a countermeasure. It's an antidote for combating abrasive and rude behavior. And I think it's really all about being a student in the class of how to show up, recognizably, respectable. That's really what it's about. Etiquette provides social skills for success. It's always about relationships and confidence. Professionalism is rooted in etiquette. How do we do this? When do we do this? What's the protocol for doing this? That's really the when part; we know we need good manners, but what do good manners look like? How do we show up recognizably respectful? So when I talk about being etiquette, I talk about that a lot in my blog. To be etiquette-full is to show up respectful. And it varies. Etiquette varies. It's relational, it's situational and it's contextual. So even asking myself, how can I be etiquette-full right now when my first response is to feel negative? How do I release that? Give that up? How do I show up etiquette full? Sometimes it's just with a smile and asking someone how they are and genuinely meaning it.

Juliette Sellgren (10.41)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I read on your blog that you have a master's in economics education, and I guess we talked about this a little bit before, but I'm wondering if it's a happy coincidence. How did economics education intersect with etiquette to get you where you are today?

Candace Smith (11.03)

I have a blog on that. I think it's called Etiquette and Economics, and I will have to go back and read the blog. But when I taught high school and I loved, well actually I taught 10 years first and I taught composition English speech and debate. I was a debate coach, so I loved coaching the students on how to present themselves. I knew nothing about etiquette. It wasn't connected at all. But being a speech and debate coach and you had to know how to think, how to teach people how to do extemporaneous speaking, how to teach debate. So those things absorbed my world and then it turned out that life becomes more complicated, and I had two little children and that makes it very hard to go on speech meets. Although my students were very good at helping out, but I knew that I needed to change what I was teaching.

And my mentor was the economics teacher at the high school at which I taught. And he said, we taught a course together, Man in His Universe. And the questions raised by him in the class, it made me think I want to put my other major to work. And he said to me, the one thing though I would say is that you really need to go back to school if you're going to teach economics because he was going to retire. He said, but you really need to go to school. So I did. I went to school in the summer to Boulder, and then I did get my master's in economics education and I loved teaching, I love teaching. So now I'm teaching something I really, really love. And it was such a passion to make sure that the students, the students were prepared for their AP exams, that we would come to the school and we would have popcorn.

But it's really interesting, Juliette, because it wasn't propriety, it wasn't good propriety. And the principal came to me and said, I understand why you're having the students come an hour before to study for their exams, but you may not pop popcorn in your classroom because other people coming into the school and they want to know where's my popcorn? So I had to give that up, but it was the best thing. So etiquette, there's really not an intersection. There's really not. When I stopped teaching high school, I actually had a little education best practices company, and I did a little bit of that with some people out Chuck Baird, some people out in California that I knew. And so it's not a very concise answer at all, but I don't think there is a connection at all. And how I was an economics teacher and so passionate about teaching except that I do love to coach and teach.

I am so energized by it all that it's empowering. I guess maybe that's the connection. Both were empowering things. I loved coaching students because it was really all about them. How do you make them believe in themselves and how do you make them care about what they're learning, finding ways to do that. And I think my blog is my attempt to coach, if you will, this quest for civility in our modern world, whether it's being successful in your work life or in just in your home life. How do you be a really cool, good human being?

Juliette Sellgren (15.55)

That's beautiful. And that's an important question that I think we all need to be asking ourselves on a more micro level because I think a lot of people focus so much, me included obviously, on the outside world, what is going on with the whole world and the whole of society and the whole of America, but really what's going on at your kitchen table builds up to what's happening at the more macro level. And if you can't go about that kindly and politely and you can't show people that you care in those ways, then how is that going to ever translate? Because that's where it starts, I think. So could you coach me a little bit, I mentioned before we started recording that in preparation for this, have been observing the people in my life at the dinner table and in professional settings and so on and so forth, but how do you politely tell someone not to eat with their mouth open? This has been eating away at me.

Candace Smith (17.05)

I think there's where the relational situational and contextual definition of etiquette or the sense that it is relational, it is in the context, it is situational. So my question then is where would you be that the person is doing that?

Juliette Sellgren 

So I guess in this particular example in my home, so we're good friends, which maybe makes it easier, but anywhere, I mean, how much does it differ? I guess if it's a client or something and you would like to seal the deal, you're not going to say anything. You're just going to ignore it.

Candace Smith (17.52)

If you're home and it's with whoever you are living with, you could ask the person, may I give you some feedback? I wondering if I could, and the person will be very interested and say, of course. And you could say, are you aware that when you're excited about the wonderful food you're eating, you sometimes make sounds? This question is a great question because I was just at a training and the person asked, when you're with someone and you're at a dinner and they're being, they're displaying mouth sounds because you see there's nothing worse. And that's one of the things I teach at the etiquette dinners. There is nothing worse than mouth sounds. And I'll say, what's a mouth sound? Someone says smacking. Someone says slurping, someone calls out, biting your fork, someone says swishing. Swishing in your mouth. There is nothing worse than mouth sounds.

Juliette Sellgren 

Other than maybe the food particles that accompany them.

Candace Smith 

Pardon?

Juliette Sellgren (19.24)

Nothing other than maybe the food particles that accompany them.

All right. So I guess I got to ask. It's good to know. It's good to know. So can you tell us a bit about why Americans tend to eat so differently than other people? I've noticed a lot of movement. The knife and the fork seem to dance between different sides of the plate. And I was taught by my grandparents who are American, but in a more European fashion. Even my dad who was left-handed had to learn how to eat with his right hand and not switch back and forth. And I'm wondering if you could tell us a bit about why this is a trait that we seem to all have. Not all, but many have.

Candace Smith (20.20)

Well, first of all, there are two in knife and fork countries. There are two basic dining styles. One is the four step American style because basically the US is the only place that people do four step dining. And it's when your fork is in your left hand or if you're a righthander. So you can, American style is tricky if you're left-hand or right-hander, there's different things you have to do, but let's just do with the right hand. So you've got your fork in your left hand and you cut with your knife, then you place your knife at the top of the plate blade in because you never have a blade out regardless of the style, it's kind of an aggressive signal. So you cut, place your knife at the top of the plate, blade in, switch hands and eat. That's the four step. The two step is continental style.

And continental style is the style that's used in all other knife and fork countries, the basic style. So that's where you hold the knife in the right hand and the forks in the left and you turn the fork upside down. I mean you turn it over, you cut, and then you eat with your left hand, the fork goes into your mouth, cut, eat, cut, eat, cut to eat. And that's just informational. There's not a should to it. But when you're dining as an American, you have to make a decision, am I going to eat American style or am I going to eat continental style? And if you switch and you think, well, you say to yourself, well, I'm more comfortable eating this food continental style, so then you can begin eating continental style and no one cares. And as long as you're not making mouth sounds, I think you're good to go.

Juliette Sellgren 

Yeah, it's always been something I'm curious about, but I think as I got older, because I remember being very bothered by this as a younger child, and now I am less bothered, I'm more tolerant. I guess that's the etiquette, maybe baked in. How learnable as an observer…Juliette as observer.

Candace Smith (23.04)

So am I correct in saying that you don't like when somebody doesn't seem to know what tools they're using or hanging their tools off the plate? Or is it that or is it particular style?

Juliette Sellgren (23.23)

I don't think it's the style as much as the, I don't want to call it carelessness, but it is, it's the hanging around the moving because things get knocked over more frequently and I tend to be clumsy, so I minimize movement. And so the order for me is kind of important. And it sounds like I spend a ton of time thinking about this and I guess relative to some other things, given that I spend so much time at the table and we all do as humans who need to eat, I guess, but I'm not obsessive about this. Just curious. I guess.

Candace Smith (24.05)

Yes, for me, given that I'm a talker and I love being with family and talking, I generally will choose continental style just because for me it's less complicated and I seem to manage okay. And I like to engage other people in conversation at the table. That's very important.

Juliette Sellgren (24.32)

I think oftentimes I'm trying to wrap my head around this idea of learned manners and behaviors that we usually group in as etiquette and what etiquette truly can be. I think to you from the sense I get what you mean when you talk about etiquette is this kindness, this Smithian sympathy, this understanding of wanting to actually connect and show care for the people around you to make the world a better place. Is it ever too late to learn etiquette? Does etiquette look a certain way? I know we're talking about specifically eating styles, but even in terms of networking for example, does it have to look specific or can it be more organic? What are kind of the hallmark traits of, I don't know if I use that right, I've never called anything a hallmark trait or is it hallmark as an adjective? And then I don't know if you know about that. Also, please let me know. 

Candace Smith (25.43)

I’ve not heard that. I like that.

I see it as a body of, excuse me, how-to practices. So you're tapping into guidelines that help you navigate any situation graciously, including new situations. So I think of etiquette is also being, including, mindfulness. So how do you mindfully bring rules into your world, whether you're meeting someone new or you're a host at an event, you're speaking up at a virtual gathering or you're just at home with your family. So it's really, yeah, I think of them as how to practices and being able to be comfortable and to make other people comfortable. That's why I named my business, it's called Etiquette for the Business of Life because it's really all about being kind, being civil. And I don't think of etiquette as being a set of rigid guidelines. They're actually, as I mentioned, situational. And they're for me, they're a personal assistant. They help me be a better person, live the life I want to live and be the person I want to be.

Juliette Sellgren 

So could you maybe lead us through a tricky situation or two where etiquette has been your guide, maybe not you as in you, Candace Smith, but a person who has this toolkit, personal assistant.

Candace Smith 

Well, today I had earlier there was a handyman who came to my house, to our house. And I have two cats. 

Juliette Sellgren 

Are they polite?

Candace Smith (27.46)

Are they polite? One of them is, Biscuit is all about biscuit.

Ms. Mallow is more mellow, but the cats can't go outside. And he left the door open. He did this way more than once. And I had asked him, can you please shut the door? Can you please shut the door? And he did it again. And I said, Tom, you know what? I'm going to shut the door because I think you just forgot something. And he said, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And I said, no problem. We solved it together and I closed the door and I just made it all about us and it was friendly. And then he didn't do that. He had several trips out to the car because he had several things he was doing in my house and he didn't do it again. And it was a problem to be solved. And I didn't think of it in terms of using etiquette, but actually I guess I did. Can you think of a situation where etiquette? Yeah. Can you think of something, Juliet, where you already knew what to do and we did it civilly and you did it graciously?

Juliette Sellgren (29.10)

Yeah. I'm trying to think of a specific example, but generally the context is a few of my friends and I are living together over the summer while we're back in DC. And group living is ripe with situations that need etiquette because different people live differently and we need to coordinate. And I think what you're showing me and what your blog is shown me, and I think what this conversation is bringing out is that etiquette greases the wheels towards happy.

Candace Smith 

I love that I'm writing that down. I love this and I'm writing a book a day by day etiquette for the business in the business of living day by day. So I love that quote. So good.

Juliette Sellgren 

Wow. I'm glad I could say something that was of value. But we're in this situation and I think there's been more than once where I think it's my mom's house, it's our family home, and we have certain practices that I don't even think about that other people might think are totally neurotic, but it's the way that we live. It's just the way we've always lived. We don't use one of the two sinks in our kitchen. We never have. I didn't know that it was a functional sink until someone asked my mom why we didn't use that sink. And so someone poured something in that sink, and my mom very politely said, Hey, kind of jokingly like I'm a little OCD, we don't use that sink, could you just please use the other sink? But she said it much more casually and it was funny and we were all laughing and it was great because there was no harm, no foul.

It wasn't mean, it wasn't rude, it wasn't don’t put your s%*t in my sink, not to pardon my French, it, we've just never used that sink and I don't really feel like cleaning it. So I just like the look of a clean sink. And somehow the way she said it was hilarious and I'm not doing it justice right now. And then since then, not a use of the sink, but there have been other situations where, and this I think is more on my end. I've been adjusting, I'm learning where I'm a little faster to anger about certain things. And it is a little bit an unawareness of it doesn't make sense for someone else to really understand, not to do that. You need to problem solve with them. I think your language is exactly right to get to the outcome that will benefit both of you because it doesn't hurt the other person not to use one of the two sinks. It's we're lucky enough to have two. If one person, namely my mom, wants you to only use one of them, that's not hard for the other person, but being rude about it would not get that outcome in the happiest way possible. General thoughts about a general situation,

Candace Smith (32.36)

And I like that your mother has, as her etiquette rule, it seems to me she doesn't want to be offensive, she wants to be civil. She's living in a household where people get along and one of the things that makes things work is that you don't use this sink. So she said that in a way that wasn't offensive and it made people smile. You mentioned living with friends and being in a home where you share a kitchen. So my thoughts would be, and probably you've already done this, is to have a meeting where you talk about things that you really, really enjoy about living with them. So you can bring up, I really love how you have a good sense of humor and I love how you always clean the bathroom up, or I love how you never leave your toothbrush, whatever that is. And you share the really good things about why you like living together.

And then you can share some things about yourself. Some things that really bother me when I'm, when I'm in a household, things that are really bothersome to me is when people don't put there, don't scrape their dishes, leave them on the counter, and everybody gets a chance to say what, living together, what would be really nice if I'm living in this household and I'm, I'm happy because people understand that I can't handle when you don't put your dishes in the dish or whatever those things are. And I think having a conversation about it, I think that would just open all kinds of doors and you would learn so much about each other.

Juliette Sellgren (34.33)

Yes, it sounds productive and something which I haven't done yet, but I think my mom maybe just laid down some ground rules before everyone moved in. But this all strikes me as very good advice and just good guidelines for certain situations where especially relationships are already created. You could have a meeting even moving in with people you don't know and that would be a great idea. But you mentioned to me earlier that you do a lot of training students to be able to network and meet new people.

How does etiquette and learning to communicate, because really I think that's another way of putting what this is, is communicating not only what you want but who you are and what your preferences are and all of that. How do you engage in settings where you don't know people, where you're relationship building?

Candace Smith (35.29)

Well, if you're at a networking event, and again, it would depend on where you are, what event would that be? What's the context? Are you at work and you're meeting new people? So it would depend on the relationship. You don't know them. So you're new people, the context and the situation. Why are you in the situation that you are meeting these people? And within that context, you go from there. But if you're at or rather not, and if you're at an event where you're meeting and greeting people, one of the first things you would not do is get your drink and your food and go stand by the wall. The goal is to meet people. One of the things that I always do myself, it really helps me and I teach other people to do, is to have, whenever you go somewhere and you're meeting new people, you have a purpose card and it's your purpose card.

Obviously you don't take your purpose card out and say, well, my purpose here is to meet six new people or whatever your purpose is, or if you're hosting the event, it's different. But I always have a purpose card. Why am I doing this? What is my goal? And then on the other side, I make my questions list. For example, we're having a neighborhood party and I'm going to, we're having people come in some, and I've met and I've done an etiquette event for them, and they're all coming to my house. So my questions are going to be situational. For example, so I've got people in my neighborhood, there's 13 homeowners, and they're older, most of them, there's one younger, one couple with two children. So my goal is to make sure that they're moving to each other. I'll say, John, I have name tags. I said, John, come, I want you to meet Jason. You'd mentioned, and so I remember, what do I know about this person? But I have, if you were going to an event and you were going to meet and greet people, you would have your purpose card. Why am I doing this?

What am I going to accomplish? What is my measurable goal? I'm measurable. I'm going to have a good time. My purpose is step on. What's my measurable goal? What am I going to accomplish? So I'll write that goal down. And then the, so the important thing about this card is that you've written it and you can tuck it in your pocket, tuck it in the kitchen drawer, wherever. If it's your house, tuck it in your handbag and you know that you've written it and it's in your brain. So I think that really for me, almost guarantees a successful event that you have your purpose card and you've got your measurable goal and you've got your questions for this group. So one of the things I'll be doing is trying to figure out questions for the group that of these folks that are coming to my house, how do I mix an attorney who works for the university with my next door neighbor? Well, I know something about my next door neighbor, and so I will just, my goal is to connect them up so they can have conversation and then I exit the conversation A bit long-winded, Juliette.

Juliette Sellgren (39.16)

No, but that's great. The one thing I think my return to DC is reminding me of this. A lot of people say that DC is super transactional and that a lot of, especially networking sorts of interactions are very transactional, kind of impersonal, cold calculated. And I really like the idea of having a goal of a purpose for an event and interaction. But can you maybe give us some examples or important tips so that they don't become transactional? Because at the end of the day, I'm thinking it's still a relational endeavor, right?

Candace Smith (40.03)

Yes. I think it depends. Some people just don't. They dread it. So is this more what you're talking about or it can be a dreaded chore. I think the first thing to do is to, number one, look like you're enjoying yourself. Smile. Go meet some people. And I think doing your homework ahead of time is really important. Like research, why is this event happening? Who's going to come and what businesses will they represent? Is there a dress code? This all this knowledge, this information helps you mentally prepare for the dread and knowing who might be in attendance. You can research and you've got your note card, you've got that in your pocket. And so at the event, one of the things that I just taught some students last week in San Diego, yes, it was last week.

As you enter this networking event, here's two things you choose which one you're going to say if maybe you're nervous or you just don't know why you're there. Just you say to yourself, now you don't say it out loud and they laughed. You say to yourself, I own this room. Or you say to yourself, I belong here. I belong here. So whichever one you choose, you're going to stand. You don't have to say, stand up, have a good posture. You just naturally stand up. Oh, oh, I own this room. Yes, I'm okay. Since I own this room, that must mean I'm the host. So I'm going to make sure that when I meet people, if I'm in a group, I'll introduce others. It's, it's a mind thing that you're getting yourself ready to be positive. You're going to walk around and you see if there's any opportunities to engage people in conversation.

Are there any wallflowers? You go to the food table, oh, here's a good thing to do. If you're going to be at an event, make sure that if there's food and drink served, that you don't become the one who's only drinking. So the rule is if food and drinks are served, you always have both, because others have both and they're drinking and they're nibbling and they're going to be more comfortable. Even if you have a plate in, again, your left hand and you've got your glass and you've got your napkin, even if you just have some things on there and you don't even intend to eat any of it because you're going out later for dinner or whatever your reason is, you still have the plate with the food and your introduction. When you introduce yourself, you're going to get further into conversation. And in your back of your mind, you're thinking, okay, now I have a purpose. I'm here for a reason. What are my goals? And I think that's perfectly fine to go to an event and maybe you say make it transactional, but you're mingling and you're having a nice conversation. Perhaps you ask them for their business card. So one rule, if you ask someone for a business card, then you make sure that within a day or two you've written, that person said it was great meeting you. Thanks a lot. Good luck on your project. And you have furthered the communication. Let's see what else I can say.

Okay, when you're at an event, good eye contact is incredible. And when I was in San Diego last week with a student group, one person, one student called out another person, and basically he said, John, you're, you're talking to me, but what happens if? And then he turned it over to me. He says, so Candace, so if somebody, and he said, I'm not naming any names, is talking to you, and they're looking around and not even looking at you. What do you do? And I said, well, I think you just try to engage 'em in the conversation.

So ask me another question because I think I'm going on and on. Juliette, you are bound to meet some really cool people. And depending on the nature of the event, you might want to follow up someone, can I join you on social media? Hey, do you do LinkedIn? I might link in LinkedIn with you. Would you do that? And yeah, I think just think networking is so much fun to be at now, I used to not think that way. It sounds like you're good at it. Well, I love it because I teach it or I'm a coach people on it. I'm head of myself as a coach. I guess I do. I really, I do. When I was, because honestly, Juliette, before I decided to do this to form a company, and this was back in 2012, I had been out and about in the world with my husband, who'd been awarded an international award in 2002. And so seriously, our new normal was travel, travel, travel. And I never, I think I wrote about this somewhere on my website, but I've never actually, I didn't have any certain guidelines. I didn't know how to be, I didn't know what to do. And it got worse and worse. And I told my husband that I just, when you are at a dinner with the president of Chile, it is intimidating. And I didn't know what to do. I didn't know anything about works and I didn't know what to do. And it was really stressful.

And I mentioned to my husband, I just don't think I want to travel like this. And he said, well, but we have to. And it's fun. This is what I do. I am going to travel. And I thought, he said, I think you need to do something. And Juliette, the word etiquette came into my mind. I never used that word in my mind. I never used it before. And I went to the internet and I looked up etiquette school, and I came up with a name of a school in Atlanta, Georgia, and I signed up for a week in Atlanta, Georgia at the American School of Protocol. And we didn't stay at the house of the person who hosted it. We stayed in a hotel and we would come to her house in this class. And so for one week we studied all of this and I loved it.

And then I took another course, I went another week, a couple of weeks later, three weeks later maybe. It was that business etiquette week. And I loved it. It was like food for my soul. And it was shortly after I got home from the second event and my husband and I had to go to Scotland and we were at a dignitaries table. And I walked into that room, I looked at the table and I thought, piece of cake, these things matter. And I knew which way to pass the bread. And I noticed that other people at my table, some of them didn't know that, but you just kind of think, oh, that person doesn't know, so you just, you're extra, I don't know, just brought out, it brings out the kindness factor and you feel so comfortable and so confident and you feel composed. And it was so enjoyable. And on the way home, I told my husband, I'm going to start a company because this has to be shared. These things do matter, these skills matter, and that's my passion. These things matter.

Juliette Sellgren (49.14)

Do you think that if everyone possessed a little more etiquette and dedicated themselves a bit more to learning that the world would become nicer?

Candace Smith 

I do. How are we going to get them to do that? Juliette? Can we have them vote?

Juliette Sellgren 

I think it has to come from the heart. I don't know if voting and the heart have the most in common. I think people vote from the heart, but I don't think voting from the heart and interacting from the heart are the same.

Candace Smith 

There's an etiquette person, Cynthia Grosso, and she does these. You can sign up for her excellence, a minute of excellence or something like that. And one thing she said, and it wasn't that long ago, she said, always remember that etiquette is a matter of the heart and your intention in being there is important. And you ask yourself, now, this is Cynthia's question. She said, is my heart right? Is my intent good? And that just gave me goosebumps. 

Juliette Sellgren (50.44)

A little thank you now. And that mindset is had, it becomes a defense mechanism internally against what some people might call transactional. The idea of maybe using someone for something else, not just a LinkedIn, maybe potential future employer, but really just wanting something out of someone. If you come at an interaction with the right purpose from the heart and you're honest and you reflect and you do your homework, then maybe it prevents us from being, I don't know.

Candace Smith 

So transactional, that's an interesting word that down.

Juliette Sellgren 

A lot of people my age talk about it. A lot of people in DC. I think it is a newer term for how interactions can go, but it's almost a tangible feeling when it's a transactional interaction versus not.

Candace Smith

You can look someone in the eye and you kind of can tell.

Juliette Sellgren 

Because you can tell because it's not from the heart.

Candace Smith 

It's not from the heart. Then you can tell it's time to exit the conversation. 

Juliette Sellgren 

True.

Candace Smith (52.15)

It's time to say, as long as the person you're with, you're not leaving them alone. That's a one rule of when you're at an event, you never want to leave anyone alone. So if this transactional person is all by himself and you say that to walk over that way, and then there'll be somebody else there, and then it's easy to let that person go. And if you have to leave yourself when you exit a conversation, you'd always say, well, I'll let you two have this conversation. Please excuse me, I'll catch up with you later. And then you're free to roam and mingle around and focus on your goal. And as far as the transactional person, good thoughts for him or her, that's not you. So your kindness might even help. Maybe that person's really nervous. Do you never know? Or is that not the way it is in DC?

Juliette Sellgren 

It could be that, and this is obviously not everyone in DC it's just, and I don't even know if I buy the narrative that DC is like this. It's just things that people often say, I think is what I'm picking up on. I'm

Candace Smith 

Going to investigate that word because you should. I have to investigate words. And yeah, I guess because I don't ever feel that something is transactional for me.

Juliette Sellgren 

But no, me neither.

Candace Smith 

You talk about knowing that when you look at someone that it's really about them and they're not really caring about meeting you. Is that what I'm picking up on?

Juliette Sellgren (53.57)

And there are people, but I don't see it as a general trend, but I think other people do. And it might just be honestly, this kind of isolation that extending kindness might remedy. So keep doing what you're doing. 

I have one last question for you. I could ask you questions for hours. We could talk about spaghetti, but I already watched the video and looked at all the pictures and the walkthrough. I'm no longer afraid to eat spaghetti in public, listeners. You should check it out as well, because it really is great. So this last question is, what is one thing that you believed at one time in your life that you later changed your position on, and why?

Candace Smith 

Do I have to stick with one?

Juliette Sellgren 

No, you can give us multiple if you'd like.

Candace Smith (54.53)

Well, it's embarrassing to say, but when I was younger, I really thought that, and I wasn't aware of it. I wasn't aware of this that I'm aware of now, but I thought that being popular was the most important thing. And it interfered a bit with my parents' expectation that I would be a really good student all the time and have straight A's like I did when I was in middle school. 

It was this expectation that I, again, I wasn't aware of it and being popular was so important to me, and I didn't know it. And I certainly don't. I mean, I like people to like my website and my articles and everyone wants to be acknowledged and be included, but popular. It was about me in a way that I am glad I'm not that way anymore. I'm glad that my passions and interests are driving me and who I am and who I strive to be. And when I was younger, it was more about also what others expected of me, about what my crowd thought of me and how people pleasing. And now it's about what I expect of myself and in my memory, there's no alarm going off and saying, oh, Candace, where did you suddenly know that this wasn't it? And no alarms went off for me. And I really do think that reasons for changing a belief or how things change for you is they're very complex and I think they're, they're very multifaceted. And for me, it kind of makes it impossible to pinpoint one clear cause or explanation on how it was that I changed for it being all about being popular and what can I do to be popular and liked to. The most important thing is who am I and what does that mean?

Juliette Sellgren

Once again, I'd like to thank my guest for their time and insight. I'd also like to thank you for listening to the Great Antidote Podcast. It means a lot. The Great Antidote is sound engineered by Rich Goyette. If you have any questions, any guests or topic recommendations, please feel free to reach out to me at Greatantidote@libertyfund.org. Thank you.